Curse

Erys Vasburg · Sep 29, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I have rank 8 Norn and Drawf

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

rank 8 Norn and Drawf

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Norn and Drawf

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Drawf

You're doing it again.

freekedoutfish · Sep 29, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erys Vasburg

You're doing it again.

What point was that intended to make?

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

....
I'm talking about the I expect very large % who would say "Either of you would do, but we can tell that (s)he's a little bit better than by the only means we have of quantitatively judging such things you because they have a title better than yours, so we'll take them."...

Well you and I disagree that the majority of players would give a hoot about whether a player was rank 5 or rank 8 Norn.

I think most intelligent players, will realise that an extra 100+ health or an extra +15 energy is useless unless the player is good. I accept having a higher title might draw more attention to you, but that doesnt mean you will get into the PUG. If we're talking about a leader who anal enough to want the best-of-the-best, I would hope they would check more then a title.

A player might get accepted before you, but might soon get kicked for having a (what they call) a rubbish build.

But quite frankly, why are you joining PUGs in the first place who are that anal?

Ive never had anyone yet, in 2 years of playing, not accept me because of a title, or a build or any other aspect of my character. I know it happens, but I wouldnt say its the majority of the people ingame who do it.

MithranArkanere · Sep 29, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

A good player can be good either with 300 or 500 HP.
A loyal player deserves having a little +100HP leeway for playing more time.

On top of that, having them work at least in some other areas (Norn in snowy areas, Asuran in Jungle areas) is a good way to promote buying all campaings.

And I must remember you that the Vanguar done ALREAY work in Prophecies Charr.

draxynnic · Sep 30, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

A good player can be good either with 300 or 500 HP.
A loyal player deserves having a little +100HP leeway for playing more time.

On top of that, having them work at least in some other areas (Norn in snowy areas, Asuran in Jungle areas) is a good way to promote buying all campaings.

And I must remember you that the Vanguar done ALREAY work in Prophecies Charr.

Ah, new argument!

The problem is, it only rewards a certain type of loyalty. I've logged over two thousand hours in PvE, but I happen to dislike title grind. Where's my reward?

Furthermore, to respond to the implicit argument that it's a benefit for having purchased more product: Every other such reward has an opportunity cost. If you have a skill that can only be acquired from one campaign - to take one infamous example, Searing Flames - you're taking it instead of some other skill. It's not a freebie.

A title is. The only opportunity cost to a title is another title - and since both of your titles are only available in GWEN, people without GWEN don't have any other options to fill the title slot with.

It would be no different, except in scale, to expansions in other MMORPGs like Burning Crusade that increase the level cap beyond what a player without the expansion can achieve.

Mangione · Oct 09, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

What about only half the bonus?

And, to people that say "oh, you'll have +100 everywhere":
Do you think that everyone will grind to max the title to get some points more?

I'm keeping my +73 on my main char, and don't think I'll go further (just take blessings and do dungeons with guildies, but won't actively grind for the title).
Think if it was halved... +36 health showing the title outside Norn area... a GREAT UNBALANCING (in PVE) BONUS... WOW!!!

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Oh, for Dwayna's sake... Someone had to revive this thread - and with something that's already been discussed.

Yes, the title bonus is a relatively small bonus. But it is a bonus. And it's a bonus that not only cannot be achieved (beyond a certain point) without grinding, but requires grinding in specific areas to get, meaning that even people who do play the game a lot are being punished - relatively speaking - if they happen to prefer other parts of the game. Flip it around, and it's like saying that you have 50 less hit points - or 14, if you'd rather consider the difference between R5 and R10 - just because you'd rather adventure in area X that doesn't advance a title instead of area Y that does.

It's the principle of the matter. Even if it was as low as +1hp/level outside Norn territories, it's 1 hit point per level too much.

If you really want a general benefit for playing a lot, tie it to experience. It'd be more equitable as almost anything you do in PvE will earn experience, while titles can only be boosted by doing specific things.

Sleeper Service · Oct 10, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

so you are strongly set against this solely on the principle of the matter then... your morals YOUR principles the way YOU want to play the game and incidentally why do you want to enforce your gamestyle on others?

logically your arguments fail. not every area is the same. not every person has the same chapter.

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

so you are strongly set against this solely on the principle of the matter then... your morals YOUR principles the way YOU want to play the game and incidentally why do you want to enforce your gamestyle on others?

Is that aimed at me? The references to plrinciples imply it is, but your arguments all appear to be in line with mine...

I'm defending the right not to have other people's playstyles forced on someone. Namely, in this case, the area-grinding playstyle required to get a title. That mechanical benefits SHOULDN'T be linked to playstyle - as titles currently are - is one of my main arguments. While I'd rather the balance model have stayed as it was before titles, if that isn't an option I'd much prefer, say, a title that grants a general bonus half the strength of Norn that is achieved through experience rather than making even a nerfed version of the Norn benefit - achievable beyond a certain point only through one or two select playstyles - generally applicable.

Quote:

logically your arguments fail. not every area is the same. not every person has the same chapter.

Um... that actually supports my point.

Hyper.nl · Oct 10, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Signed to have a better reward for all the grinding.

Sleeper Service · Oct 10, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

There is already a Schism between players that is not title related, this split has existed since the release of Sorrows Furnace. People who like certain area more are rewarded "unfairly" in the form of better drops, or more gold, or access to better skills (elites that they can cap, example: Mineral Springs). People who have more chapters than others are rewarded with better items (inscriptions etc) access to more gold, better skillbars and newer game mechanics (more storage, heroes).

If your argument is that titles give an unfair advantage to players which in turn unbalances PVE leading to the development of ultrahard or "elite" areas ONLY feasible through the use of Grinded rank X titles then yes i fully agree with you.

If its just a question of "principles" then no i dont. These principles are invalid because the division between players is here, WERE here, and will remain.

So, if ever this thread idea were ever come to pass we could have several possible outcomes:

1. Seeing as the bonus to players is pretty much minimal players would flash their titles and gaming would continue as is. -this is what i think would happen, but then again i ain't no Oracle

2. Seeing as people are people, some would demand that players entering their PUG flash particular titles and have a certain rank in them. - more than likely these would be the same people demanding that you take a certain skillbar etc so...i never PUG with these fools anyways

3. Anet would develop harder areas to offset the innate advantage that each title could give. - the amount of work that would have to go into that makes that assumption unreasonable from the offset in my opinion.

Seeing as number 3 only poses a problem to me and I really don’t think that would happen.

/signed.

-edit sorry i didnt mean to sound harsh Drax, it was late and words like "principles" just set me off.

MithranArkanere · Oct 10, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Yeah, you'll have +100HP everywhere, but you will still have to choose. Not all titles can be selected at the same time, and none of them work in PvP.

So... What it's better? +40% damage and 8 damage reduction or +100HP?

Nah... at least some conditions can be used. Norn in 'snowy areas', asura in 'jungle areas', etc...

dark_prince2023 · Oct 10, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

When you start arguing about things like this you have to ask the question. Who plays because of the no monthly fee? To me this game is just like any RPG the only difference is there are people in the game besides you. Now not everyone wants the same thing you do. So I say give it to the people as an option not everyone finds the game EZ and not everyone can play for hours. I mostly only get an hour and that’s not very much time to do anything (was once upon a time). So some people might need or want a way to optimize there time and I really don't see how this hurts anyone. P.S. I cheat at RPGs (can't cheat this one). It tends to relieve stress and helps the ego when I kill 100 char by myself.

=HT=Ingram · Oct 10, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

The ONLY way anyone with a brain would agree to this concept is if the title system was locked IN TOWN before going out. That means no more switching titles from one to the other when you need the boost...

Or switching as you zone from overland to dungeon.

Making this happen everywhere is just unfeasible. the other parts of the game are easy enough as it is, without giving even MORE advantage to title grinders... All this concept will do is make a Titleist environment in PvE as it
was for a long time in PvP with Rank, ultimately killing participation in PvP for all but the highest in rank or those that bought a free ride...

Its hard enough to convince people to play with each other in PUGs, adding a title requirement to be accepted into a PUG will just make that worse. And trust me if you make the title benefits global... Thats exactly what will happen. This is a mistake Anet will not make. Indeed I'm sure they would remove all title benefits from the game entirely before allowing that to happen again. Making titles as meaningless as they should be IMHO. The point is right now they are basically optional. You can grind up 1 character with max everything (or at least lev 5) and be very very happy with just that cause they can get things for the other characters at that point. OK not armor, but you see what I mean... Armor was always optional. its just a skin. there is NO benefit to them other then that. As it is you get you 1 through and basically can run any of your other character through the game with 0 titles and guess what? They too can complete GWEN with no problem. And in record time if you know how...

My record from Boreal Station to CTC and A Time for Heroes, 1hr 15 mins. 0 titles (ok 1 title, Sunspear, cause I came from Nightfall)... Thats after I have at least 1 character complete GW:EN the way its suppose to be completed of course. Point is this is allowed because title grind is NOT a requirement... Indeed its by design that this is possible, so other characters do not HAVE to waste time grinding up titles if they do not want them. And yet be allowed to participate in everything as though they did... This means those characters will be able to participate in HM GW:EN when released, Elite quests and master missions NOW, and all other dungeons regardless of requirements right away on other characters once they went through all the regermerall of grinding out the game on at least 1 character.

Oh Who plays because of no monthly fee? humm Just about all of us.

I have played Wow, CoV CoH, Galaxies, EQ, and LoTR. None of them do I play anymore... Why? too expensive to play casually. GW can play when I want, with whom I want, anytime I want, and no extra expense. That is TOP reason I play this game above all others even over FPSes which I also enjoy a lot. But ultimately is very limited with whom you can play with because of lousy servers not being able to handle the distance at times between users and the shear amount of packets being sent. GW is much more packet friendly and has a much better client side engine. Plus its a great place to meet up with friends world wide and have some fun together. All for the inital cost of the game and thats it... For the initial investment of under $200 US in GW I have had over 3 years of entertainment... That same time on ANY other subscription based MMORPG... $639.64 Thats at least a 69% discount by playing GW instead of WoW. Seems like a bargain too good to be true? But it is, and will continue to be... And we have just as many content updates if not more then WoW or CoV, or EQ 2 has had in the same period of time. Yes true CoV is up to issue 12 now. But I consider issue 9 the equivalent of GW Prophecies content wise not issue 1. so that's only 3 updates...

draxynnic · Oct 11, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

There is already a Schism between players that is not title related, this split has existed since the release of Sorrows Furnace. People who like certain area more are rewarded "unfairly" in the form of better drops, or more gold, or access to better skills (elites that they can cap, example: Mineral Springs).

Ah, but the difference is that all that stuff (except elite caps, but they only require doing an area once, or maybe a handful of times for areas where the boss spawns are random). Wherever you go (as long as it's a reasonably high-end area), you're going to get drops. Your collection of items with good mods and the funds in your bank account will both accumulate. One way may be slower than another, but you're not locking yourself from ever receiving a certain reward by not playing in a particular area (except for greens, but most of those can be replicated by adding the right mods to a collector item - again, it might not be so fast if you're waiting for perfect mods to drop, but you're not locked away from having it).

Norn/Asura/etc titles, however, require you to play in a particular area. If, for some reason, you don't like playing in Norn territory... you will never increase your Norn rank. It's not like Area X that drops twice as much gold gold as area Y or area A which drops gold items at three times the rate as area B, but where the choice of Area A or X over B or Y is simply one of speed and where if you happen to prefer B or Y for whatever reason (the presence of quests to do, for instance) enough to justify the slower rate of acquisition, you can do so.

However, titles don't work that way - and neither, for story reasons, SHOULD they. You can't go play in Mineral Springs or the UW or wherever and contribute to your Norn title, even at a reduced rate. It's either grind away at the title in Norn territories or don't get anything at all.

And that, in my mind, is the difference. When it comes to wealth acquisition, some areas may well be more equal than others - but wherever you go, you will gather wealth unless you ignore the drops entirely. When it comes to titles, however, the various areas are highly inequal - you go to your assigned zone and grind like a good little worker bunny, or you get squat. That, in my mind, is a good reason why the benefits should, as much as is still possible, be kept in their assigned zones.

(As for benefits for buying additional chapters, I've gone over that before. To give a synopsis: Using stuff from previous chapters all require an opportunity cost. If you use skill X from Nightfall, that's a slot that could have been used for skill Y from Prophecies, and so on. It may well be worth the trade, but the trade is there. Titles, on the other hand, are freebies - there's nothing from Prophecies or Factions that has to be displaced in order to display a title)

Sleeper Service · Oct 11, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

But grind is just that: GRIND.

whether you grind for titles or for gold it amounts to the same thing, you end up being better equipped/more powerful.
yes i know where you stand on that.

I for one find current PvE skills a LOT more powerful that the passive buffs that these titles give, yet I have yet to see rank discrimination for say Assuran PvE skills.

I think you are overestimating the impact that this would have.

And i totally disagree with your viewpoint on chapters ... I HAVE been kicked out for not equipping flesh golem on my bar *and i found another straight away afterwards.

Sleeper Service · Oct 11, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

To make myself clear.

the Very same people who demand that you equip a certain skillbar, use a certain hero etc will be the same ones that demand you use a certain TITLE.

Otherwise its just people looking to have some fun you get me?

draxynnic · Oct 11, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

But grind is just that: GRIND.

whether you grind for titles or for gold it amounts to the same thing, you end up being better equipped/more powerful.

What you haven't answered, though, is the difference between location-specific grind and general grind.

I can get gold by running around on various characters finishing a HUGE backlog of side quests I've built up, pushing characters through parts of the storyline I've skipped (or just plain haven't got to yet) with those characters, and general exploration. None of these I consider to be grind per se - they're all objectives to be completed in and of themselves, not just working on some levelling or pseudo-levelling treadmill. In order to get title points, however, once one has completed the quests in a given area (which might get you to R5...) one's only choice is to clear zones - something I consider to be grind (according to the 'things you don't enjoy doing but you have to to be able to do something you might enjoy later' definition I presented in another thread - the "Enough already" one, from memory) once I've done it the first time around.

There's the difference. One is a form of grind that allows you to choose how you achieve it, and depending on your choices, you can make it happen in the background without really impacting on how you play. The other requires you to play in a specific manner that a lot of people don't like. Titles fall into the second category. Wealth acquisition into the first.

Let me repeat that point. A player who's willing to be patient rather than go for what they want right now can simply play normally and not engage in any grind-like activities and still gain the rewards of wealth. It is simply not possible, however, for such a player to gain the rewards of title benefits in this way unless they happen to consider the actions required to gain a title to be "normal" play.

Again: One form of grind can be left to happen in the background. The other has to be brought to the foreground or it just won't happen. This is an important difference. You can't say it's just all the same grind, because it isn't.

PS Requiring Flesh Golem is certainly a sign of the leader's arrogance, since there's far from being a consensus that Flesh Golem is the best elite for a MM anyway. Aura of the Lich, Order of Undeath, possibly even Jagged Bones are all good contenders, and that's just working from the top of my head.

Taurucis · Oct 11, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

/not signed.

For one, it would promote Grind of teh Naaawth.

Also it would mean title requirements to join groups... so that means no more running around with my alliance for me, cause I don't have EotN, and likely never will.

So I'm not signing this.

Crom The Pale · Oct 11, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

WOW, didn't we cover everything in this disscusion a long time ago, like by page 3 or 4???

We are being given a bonus for equiping a title, read the word bonus!

Bonus's must have some limits, notice how a moral bost stops at +10% and vanishes when you enter a city?

So lets sum up all the bonus you know have. Grail of Might, Essence of Celerity, Armor of Salvation, Powerstone of Courage, Honeycomb, Bowl of Skalefin Soup, Drake Kabob, Elixir of Valor, Pahnai Salad, Refined Jelly, Birthday Cupcake, Golden Egg, Peppermint Candy Cane, Rainbow Candy Cane, Wintergreen Candy Cane ......and you wish to stack a title ontop of this because of what???

Just like all of those consumables, the titles have to have limits and the current limits are just fine and make perfect sense.

Sleeper Service · Oct 11, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

what about PvE only rank linked skills.
they fall into the same category. Why should any of those skills work outside their designated capture areas?

because its fun. because PvE balance has gone totally out the window and it no longer really matters in that aspect.

titles would add to the fun. Good players or sociable players do not DEMAND particular skills or titles anyways.

Consumables require gold. having enough gold to "Waste" on consumables requires GRIND, a lot of people seem to confuse playing to have fun and playing to accumulate ingame wealth or power...what i mean is, to them THATS fun.

to me (and many others) its NOT, we play to play, for the story, for the skills and builds for the amazing graphics and to keep chatting to the people we have come to appreciate ingame.

If someone demands a rank? we leave. a skill? we leave. is annoying or tells us to play "their way"? (without basis) we leave.

making titles work Gamewide would not change the way we PUG or anything except make the game more fun.

thats all i have to say. circular discussion is bad.